Well Time Magazine has dove headfirst into a topic that always generates a lot of heat and (occasionally) a bit of light. "God vs. Science," the latest cover story, takes the form of a debate between the atheist philosopher Richard Dawkins, author of the recent bestseller The God Delusion, and Francis Collins, director of the National Human Genome Research Institute and author of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.
The debate is based on the assumption that most of us as readers want to occupy something the author calls a 'middle-ground': we want the benefits of science and technological development but we want to hang on to the possibility of miracles and supernatural intervention. We want to celebrate the advances of science while retaining a sense of cosmic significance. We want to have our cake and eat it too.
On the whole I thought the debate was a fairly honest presentation of the key differences between the two sides. Collins talks about the intricacy of the natural world and the astronomical unlikelihood of our universe being able to sustain life as arguments for the existence of a Designer. Dawkins posits the multiverse theory, that argues that ours is but one of an infinite number of universes, most of which do not sustain life.
There's also some discussion of the idea of whether or not we have to look 'within the machine' for an answer to the question of God's existence. Dawkins finds Collins' view of the possibility of supernatural intervention 'from the outside' to be an abdication of scientific responsibility. Collins sees an argument that rules out the possibility of the supernatural before the fact to be a decision that is not necessarily based on evidence but on prior commitments.
They touch briefly on the moral question: Do the categories of 'good' and 'evil' make sense if morality is seen as an evolutionary adaptation? Here Dawkins seemed a bit confusing to me. Consider the following statements:
"I don't believe that there is hanging out there, anywhere, something called good and something called evil. I think that there are good things that happen and bad things that happen."
"Humans have more moral responsibility perhaps, because they are capable of reasoning."
I'm not sure I understand how the categories of good and evil are possible without some kind of external reference point. How are good and evil distinguishable without some kind of standard? How is moral behaviour on the one hand evidence of our evolutionary adaptation to our environment and on the other hand a 'responsibility' that is ours on the virtue of our capacity for reason? This becomes especially confusing as Dawkins tries to address the question of stem-cell research. Here he employs a moral category as the criterion for decisions in this area, "Moral questions such as stem-cell research turn upon whether suffering is caused."
So where do these thinkers eventually come out? The following are quotes from their concluding statements:
Collins...
"I find absolutely nothing in conflict between agreeing with Richard in practically all of his conclusions about the natural world, and also saying that I am still able to accept and embrace the possibility that there are answers that science isn't able to provide about the natural world--the questions about why instead of the questions about how. I'm interested in the whys. I find many of those answers in the spiritual realm. That in no way compromises my ability to think rigorously as a scientist."
Dawkins...
"My mind is open to the most wonderful range of future possibilities, which I cannot even dream about, nor can you, nor can anybody else. What I am skeptical about is the idea that whatever wonderful revelation does come in the science of the future, it will turn out to be one of the particular historical religions that people happen to have dreamed up."
This was an interesting read but like most debates on this topic it seems that there is an inevitable stalemate that is reached as both positions are pushed back to their starting points. Dawkins views any attempt to explain the evidence by positing the existence of God to be contrary to the scientific method. Collins remains open to the possibility of supernatural intervention in the world. Once these cards are on the table it can feel like there's not an obvious way forward in the conversation.
9 comments:
I think Collins could have done a better job, although I suppose there's no way of knowing how much editing of comments was done on either side of the debate. I would have like to see Collins more explicitly point out that Dawkins' argument is, at root, a theological one, not a scientific one.
Regarding the idea of a supernatural cause of the universe, Dawkins says
"But it does seem to me to be a worthy idea. Refutable--but nevertheless grand and big enough to be worthy of respect. I don't see the Olympian gods or Jesus coming down and dying on the Cross as worthy of that grandeur. They strike me as parochial. If there is a God, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed."
This is emphatically NOT a scientific argument. It's a theological/philosophical argument based on what Dawkins thinks is worthy of the designation "God." He does this repeatedly - the process of evolution, apparently, disproves the existence of God because this isn't how God WOULD HAVE created the world. 'Would have' according to whom? An atheist who doesn't believe that there is such a being as God? For someone who gets so exercised about the impossibility of God's existence, Dawkins seems to have a fairly clear conception of what God must be like, and how he ought to have done things.
More importantly, the issue of what God would or would not have done is not a question that science can answer. I find it interesting that a scientist and a committed atheist, when asked to offer any concluding remarks, chooses the above quote - a claim that has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with theology.
Interesting. I generally have difficulty understanding Dawkins. So often when he is speaking against the errors of religion he sounds like he is talking about himself.
I wonder if the "multiverse" argument is based on some his own "prior commitments"? Is there evidence to suggest multiple universes?
Those are rhetorical questions.
Good insight ryan, thanks for pointing that out.
Ryan, I think you should write that in a letter to the editor.
Hello Gil and all,
Here's my two bits on this intractable debate. Hope you and others can appreciate my efforts to provide a key to a true solution for humanity's seemingly never-ending cycle of struggle and despair.
Analyzing the Creator Debate
Did you ever consider that atheism arose because certain people saw that religious characterizations about the nature of an omnipotent "God" were seriously flawed and then concluded that religion and the Creator were the same things? This is the exact same conclusion at the base of religious beliefs; namely that the Creator and religion are inseparable. Consequently, both atheists and religious followers are arguing over a flawed assumption without considering that other possibilities negate the common core conclusion of both groups. These arguments are actually over religion and whether it represents a reliable model of reality. The answer to this question is of course not. Religion is not only flawed, it is purposely deceptive! Though atheists are certainly sincere in their conclusions, the fact remains that they and religious followers are locked in a debate that cannot be won by either side because both base their positions upon whether the same flawed premise is the truth. In order for this debate to conclude with a truthful answer, a greater level of discernment is required.
One apt clarifying question is, if someone tells lies about you, does that negate you or make you a liar or a lie? Certainly, the image cast about you would be a false one, but that is their image, not the real you. Consequently, faulty religious assertions about the Creator of this universe do not negate the existence of a Creator. Considering the possibility that this universe is not by chance leaves the door open to how it arose, which leads us to seek what could have created and maintained it. Since neither religion nor science has yet adequately answered this question, it is safe to conclude that those who argue about the Creator based on either are most certainly wrong about one or more aspects. Therefore, another point of view and additional knowledge are required.
Read More...
Peace...
As a quick followup to Marc's question, the multiverse idea flows from certain interpretations of string theory, which include evidence of 11 dimensions to our universe. Since space-time consists of four dimensions, that leaves seven-dimensions, which are hidden. Pay special attention to the fact that four dimensions match the four element symbolism of ancient wisdom and the seven hidden dimensions directly match the allusions to seven "spiritual" realms in various ancient sources. The frontiers of quantum physics are thereby serving to shine the light on the meaning of certain ancient wisdom symbols and allusions which shows us two things; first that certain ancient texts and concepts do indeed have verifiable hidden meanings and secondly that the three faiths of Abraham have falsely asserted what those texts and symbols actually refer to and where the original texts and concepts came from. Once again, science is proving that religious assertions are verifiably flawed.
There is no truth without discernment and no wisdom with the truth!
What then is "faith" but an effort to confound truth and wisdom?
Seven Star,
Thanks for your contribution. I have a few questions about some of your arguments so your clarification would be appreciated.
You say: "both atheists and religious followers are arguing over a flawed assumption". I wasn't able to discern what that flawed assumption was. Can you make it explicit.
You say: "This is the exact same conclusion at the base of religious beliefs; namely that the Creator and religion are inseparable." I don't think that this is the basis of the Christian worldview at all. The base of religious belief is in the FACT of a Creator. I have never come across an intelligent presentation of theistic belief that says that this belief is EXACTLY EQUATED with a religious system. Most religious believers are honest enough to understand religion as a flawed human enterprise.
You say: "Religion is not only flawed, it is purposely deceptive!" This is a strong statement and it's not clear how you got here. You seem to make this argument on the basis of an assumption that religious faith cannot represent a 'reliable model of reality' but it's not clear where this standard of reliability comes from. Who decides what counts as reliable? Proponents of a philosophical system that has already ruled out the existence of a supernatural power to whom we are accountable?
Having read the conclusion of the argument that you link to above, it seems to me that you have profound faith in both the rational human mind and the critical powers of science. You do seem to have a healthy level of suspicion about whether science can prove things conclusively but you see it as a lot more reliable than 'religion' (although many would object to your presentation of religion as a bit of a caricature). I certainly welcome any approach to this question that explicitly admits that both sides take critical assumptions on faith (although I'm not sure if you would agree with that statement).
I welcome your clarification of multiverse theory. My rudimentary understanding of both the multiverse theory and the string theory to which you allude, is that they remain theories. They are hypothetical constructs that attempt to explain the available evidence. In the case of the so-called multiverse, there seems to be a clear effort to counter the 'rare-earth hypothesis' that sees the very existence of life as highly improbable and pointing toward design or intention. It seems that the theoretical nature of these hypotheses often gets forgotten and they get passed off as obvious truth.
One more clarification: your profile indicates that your occupation is 'messiah'. I'm curious.
i have been listening to a lot of richard dawkins and sam harris lately. the point of inquiry podcast[atheism version of campus crusade] has had them on several times leading the charge in their fight against all religions. i read this debate and dawkins and collins both make these truth claims that cannot be verified empirically or rationally at all.
i am pretty sceptical of this multi-universe theory. it doesn't sound very scientific at all because its hypothesis is not verifiable by observation. and quantum theory i hear is under the same sort of criticisms. the movie 'what the bleep do we know' makes quantum theory look more like a whacked out cult than a science.
i think rational discussion takes place within the parameters of observable empirical evidence. dawkins and collins submit truth claims not within these parameters. they would be articles of belief taken on faith. so its pretty hard to have a debate about beliefs that are taken on faith.
i don't mind dawkins and company out there promoting atheism[seems like they are everywhere doing this now] but to suggest, as he does in the wired article and the point of inquiry podcast] that it is perhaps time to think about the government to make sure atheism is taught in homes and schools. that is just unforgivable.
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